[KLUG Members] MySQL adoption

[Adam Williams]

>> Apache/PHP came online as an easy and rather nifty way
>> to solve a coiple of problems.  
>This is important and not enough emphasized by the pro-postgres people. 
>  It's like they don't want to admit it.  PHP/MySQL is Easy, fast, 
>cheap.  Lather, rinse, repeat.

Actually the system I'm talking about uses niether PostgreSQL or MySQL; it 
uses a commercial database.  The database in question isn't the point.

MySQL/PostgreSQL/whatever - the difference in the difficulty in 
implementation is totally negligible.

>> And the intranet grew like a malignant
>> cancer.
>This was -because- Apache/PHP/Mysql are such a good combination (and 
>hey, if we assume Linux it is a LAMP system).  Rapid growth is not ipso 
>facto a bad thing, the cancer metaphor is pejorative.

True, although were talking Apache/PHP/{InsertDBhere}, and not really 
LAMP, but LA?P.

Rapid growth is certainly not a bad thing - we are discussing unengineered 
rapid growth - which is a bad thing.  Rapid unforseen growth, and being 
unforseen no initial accomidations were made far large increases in the 
level of complexity.
 
> >> Right;  hence the emphasis on getting the message out to start that
>> way.  Because hundreds of more-or-less stand alone PHP files is a mess. 
>> PHP and other scripting lanaguage are really handy,  but their also a
>> trap.
>That's your interpretation of your situation.  Not necessarily 
>duplicable everywhere else and not necessarily the proper interpretation 
>of your situation.  

I think my interpreation of my situtuation is pretty valid! :)

>Hey, whose the Netadmin over there, doesn't he have 
>any responsibility in this? ;-)

Sure I do,  and I'm sharing knowledge aquired through pain.

>In my view the chief thing being overlooked by the 
>always-start-with-postgres crowd is while they see that the ease of 
>deployment of PHP/MySQL can create problems later they don't see that 
>the difficulty of PostGres with all it's programming overhead can create 
>problems now.

The difference is merely one of API from the perspective of PHP.  Its not 
really what were talking about.

>In other words, it is quite possible for a newbie to be so intimidated 
>by fearful talk of layer abstraction, triggers, transactions and views 
>that they never start: they never offer to do it at work, they never 

And in hindsight, I'm not certain never starting is such a terrible thing.  
If I (or anyone else) is going to inherit it and have to support it.

I'm not saying LA?P sites CAN'T be well engineered, I'm saying it is 
*EASY* and *COMMON* for them not to be.  LA?P code can be just as modular, 
clear, and well-divided as code in any other language.  However,  the 
tempation for slapdashery is very high.  Thats the point I'm making.

>create their own dynamic website, they never contribute their 
>intellectual capital to the growth of the internet and networks at large.

>To use another metaphor, it's like building inspectors preaching 
>hellfire to the pioneers.  Maybe the inspectors know a lot about 
>buildings, but they're overlooking the need to build a country.  Hey, we 
>needed those people to move west and develop.  It was better for them to 
>build a lesser building and succeed (and build better later) than for 
>them to have never left home to build at all.

True, but I think the methaphor has problems.  Expectation of exponential 
increases in complexity should be the assumption,  everything will be 
easier later, even if harder at first.  In most organizations the cost of 
building, scrapping, and rebuilding is just way too high; maybe because 
the cost of limping along on an existing base isn't properly perceived, 
but the "why" politically doesn't matter.

>There is something valuable about contributing your effort to a larger 
>whole, leaving something behind you after you've moved on.  Those who do 
>not build leave nothing behind.  The principal ties in rather with the 
>whole open source movement, I believe.  The more people contributing 
>generally by trying new things specifically the better.

Right, but those who build nothing reusable also leave nothing behind.