[KLUG Members] Dropping CIS enrollments

[Adam Williams]

> I'll have to say I agree that college and certs are extremely different
> in objective.  Different employers have differing perspectives as well
> of the prospective employer possible qualifications.  Employers want
> risk reduction.  They want someone else to put a seal of
> adequacy/excellence on the future employee before they commit

Yep, having *something* is important.  What to have, and how much paper
you need depends alot on how much the HR department plays a role in
hiring  THe more central the role of HR the more paper you'll need;  the
more hiring is departmental the mor emeplhasis is likely to be placed on
'intangibles'.  So if you want to work for a BIG company (probably
centralized HR) that pays more (and lays you off after 12 months) - you're
going to need paper.  So I think it does depend on the students objective.
Personally I seem to see a strong inverse relationship in CIS between pay
and job stability;  best to find a comfortable spot in the middle at a
medium sized company (thats my advice anyway).

>.  I'd say
> the best thing is good references.  References the employer respects. 
> Those references are most often people they trust but can be certs and
> degrees.

YES
YES
YES

> I have a degree from WMU and feel that in no way shape or form did it
> cater to the least common denominator.  It was a serious challenge.  My
> degree was engineering and I will say that the material in the degree
> and the pre-requisite knowledge to perform the engineering job I did
> have for a few years were in different ballparks.  The material in
> college tends to be more general and theoretical.  Certs test knowledge
> in a field as currently practiced.  College tends to think a little more
> long term.  If a college taught to a cert, the material would probably
> be worthless by graduation.

I think that is all true,  but in my experience with graduates it isn't
true of CIS programs - they did teach like it was toward a certification,
only they did it badly.  So why not just get the certification.

Maybe WMU is a shining example of doing-it-right;  my experience is with
the GR colleges (GVSU, Davenport, GRCC, Calvin, Cornerstone, and a pinch
of Ferris).  [Note: I'm not surprised that certain of these schools suck,
but for other reasons]

> I still believe that a degree is just to show that you have learned how
> to learn in a related field and that the instructors have said so.

And that is not a bad thing - assuming the instructors are serious
devotees of their field(s).

> I look in the paper every week and the job situation in kazoo is not
> good lately (read last 3 years).  I know most jobs are not found through
> the paper but I think it is a indicator for the market.  Systems admins
> support users.  The number of users in Michigan I think is just going
> down the tubes.  Manufacturing jobs are flying to other locations.

True, but alot of other industries (like heath care) that are on the rise
use lots of IT.