[KLUG Advocacy] Let's get this CS v. CIS v. moron v. other party started -- WAS: Oh, the joys of upgrading!

[Doc Rea]

More from the ivory tower...

On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 09:26, Adam Tauno Williams wrote:

> I'm not so cure it is that black and white, or what "traditional education"
> encompsases.  I attended a technical college/program and dropped out in both
> disgust and boredom.
> 

This is a shame, I agree. Although I would never go as far as to assert
that I enjoyed everything about every one of my classes I took. I'd even
go as far to guess that not everyone enjoys the classes I teach. Of
course I'm not there to entertain so maybe "enjoy" is the wrong verb.

> I'd actually like the graduates I've met to have a more "traditional"
> background.  If they understand the theory and concepts learning specific tools
> comes easy.
> 

You're right on the money here. For example, I try to teach logical and
critical thinking through a problem in a programming class. It really
doesn't matter which language I use to do it. However, what does matter
is showing students that they can pick up syntax with a few books...It's
the reasoing that counts.

> It is the complete lack of clue about things like version control that bug me. 
> Not that they don't know how to use CVS, but that they don't get it, even the
> "why".  And having to explain to a CIS person how to read a basic UML class
> diagram?  And object inheritence in OO?  The difference between a thread and a
> process?  Constraints in relation databases (or even what the "relational" part
> of that description means)?  Seriously, why not just grab a high-school graduate
> and teach him what he needs to know,  your going to be doing it anyway, and
> he'll do it for less money and with less attitude.
> 

Wait a second...The above paragraph contradicts what you said in the
previous one. These are all specific items. You're right most college
graduates might not know about version control, but they should have the
analytical skills to pick it up very quickly. As far as attitude goes..I
don't think that's limited to a grade level or age. Some folks just have
attitude and some don't.


> What exactly do they spend all those months/years studying?  I'm curious to have
> someone actually involved in those coarses to answer that question.
> 

Which courses? Systems Analysis, Programming, English?


> I have my own theory as to the root of the problem,  but I'd like to hear from
> the horses mouth.

I'm not sure I like being called a horse ;}

> 
> In my college experience that problem was not even so much that the instructors
> were obselete themselves but the attitude of the school towards the students. 
> They treated us like customers.   Endless help was available - tutoring,
> extensions on assignments, leneancy on grading, etc...  It was entirely possible
> to pass a class with no competence in the topic whatsoever.  Flunking someone
> just didn't seem to be an option, except in the most extreme cases.  Just about
> everyone in those classes should have flunked the "101:Intro to UNIX" coarse.  
> 

I'm not sure how to reply to this one. Just like everywhere else there
are good, bad, apathetic, etc. people. You will see differences in how
schools treat students, of course. I'm not sure I'm best qualified to
compare and contrast. All of my schooling was in state schools and I
teach in one now.

> So there are ~20 people out there, walking about with the same scrap of paper I
> have, who are mystified by the entire concept of "cd ..".  I know becuase one
> asked on the second to last day why the instructor typed that, I could barely
> contain myself.  Then someone asked her to explain it again!

Unfortunately, a scrap of paper is just that...a scrap of paper. It's
what you do with the information you got out of the course that matters.
The scrap might get you in somewhere, but it's up to you to stay there.