[KLUG Advocacy] Let's get this CS v. CIS v. moron v. other party started -- WAS: Oh, the joys of upgrading!

Adam Tauno Williams advocacy@kalamazoolinux.org
Tue, 31 Dec 2002 13:34:35 -0500


>>I'm not so cure it is that black and white, or what "traditional
>>education" encompsases.  I attended a technical college/program and dropped 
>>out in both disgust and boredom.
>This is a shame, I agree. Although I would never go as far as to assert
>that I enjoyed everything about every one of my classes I took. I'd even
>go as far to guess that not everyone enjoys the classes I teach. Of
>course I'm not there to entertain so maybe "enjoy" is the wrong verb.

I wasn't so much concerned about enjoyment,  I got along pretty well with all my
instructors, even went out ot lunch with a few of them.  The pace, content, and
expectations of the courses was not challangeing, bordering on insulting.

>>I'd actually like the graduates I've met to have a more "traditional"
>>background.  If they understand the theory and concepts learning specific
>>tools comes easy.
>You're right on the money here. For example, I try to teach logical and
>critical thinking through a problem in a programming class. It really
>doesn't matter which language I use to do it. However, what does matter
>is showing students that they can pick up syntax with a few books...It's
>the reasoing that counts.
>>It is the complete lack of clue about things like version control that bug
>>me. Not that they don't know how to use CVS, but that they don't get it, 
>>even the "why".  And having to explain to a CIS person how to read a basic 
>>UML class diagram?  And object inheritence in OO?  The difference between a 
>>thread and a process?  Constraints in relation databases (or even what the 
>>"relational" part of that description means)?  Seriously, why not just grab a
>>high-school graduate and teach him what he needs to know,  your going to be 
>>doing it anyway, and he'll do it for less money and with less attitude.
>Wait a second...The above paragraph contradicts what you said in the
>previous one. These are all specific items. You're right most college
>graduates might not know about version control, but they should have the

I asked that they know what version control is, why it is used, etc... I think
that falls squarely in the conceptual area.  If the concepts are much more
abstract than that they aren't very useful and might as well just take a liberal
arts course.  Object inheritence (and the concept of an object) is language
neutral,  no one should graduate from a C(anything) program without knowing what
that is.  The same with concepts like: thread, process, file, socket - these are
all platform, language, .... neutral concepts.  Whether your a programmer,
system or net admin you have to know these.  And data models like relational,
hierarchical, and the basic terms upon which these models are commonly
implemented (it doesn't matter what database system).  The graduates I've worked
with don't even know the CIS vocabulary to discuss implementing a system beyond
a handful of PCs.  I don't understand how thats possibly viewed as success. 

Teaching someone SQL is one thing, I've done that lots of times;  teaching
someone data modelling techniques, normalized form, to consider concurreny,
etc... is quite something else - something that should have happened before I
met them (IMHO).

>>What exactly do they spend all those months/years studying?  I'm curious to
>>have someone actually involved in those coarses to answer that question.
>Which courses? Systems Analysis, Programming, English?

I'm just curious what would be considered a short list of concepts that a CIS
graduate should have mastered by the time they graduate.  Maybe individual
students can diversify to the point where that question doens't really have an
answer,  I don't know how the process works.

>>I have my own theory as to the root of the problem,  but I'd like to hear
>>from the horses mouth.
>I'm not sure I like being called a horse ;}

An arabian stallion maybe?

>Unfortunately, a scrap of paper is just that...a scrap of paper. It's
>what you do with the information you got out of the course that matters.

I understand that, but it is also frustrating.  Both as the person who has to
spend money to earn the scrap, and the guy who has to evaluate people - based on
what if the scrap is admittedly just that.  I think schools do themselves a
disservice in the long run by letting a degree be reduced to that;  it already
appears to be happening in the technology field that cerifications are eclipsing
degrees as the focus.  But I think that has poor consequences in the long run. 
Vendor certifications are not (by definition) well rounded or even fair,  a
student can have a dangerously narrow understanding.  I like the ~30-40 credits
of general "fluff" that most college students are required to take,  I've seen
that really help some get a handle on the world (personally that is, even if
they thought they had one before).  And that pays off in the work place in
myriad ways.

>The scrap might get you in somewhere, but it's up to you to stay there.

True.