[KLUG Advocacy] No OS immune to DOS attacks... [consolidated response]

[Adam Williams]

> > > Never needed OLE, ADO, MDAC, the SAM, COM/DOM, NetBEUI, and the GDI to
> > > run a simple word processor in M$ Office... basic composing, spell
> > > checking, saving, and printing!  My 8 1/2 year old can handle that...
> > You don't need them until they go awry. Then you find you do. And they
> > go awry quite often, even at Pharmacia/Pfizer, which had a first-class
> > Windows setup (maintained, may I add, by geeks).
> Never had a single problem with any of the above acronyms.  Just lucky? 

Extremely!  I know of at least a dozen people who have purchased a
computer recently, and it just sits in the corner - because trying to do
anything is SO painful.  I can't go to the office cafeteria without
someone unloading thier epic of technological woe.

> > > The typical end user's intelligence is grossly exaggerated by Linux
> > > developers.  
> > As long as the distros want popularity, they will fund developers who
> > make things easy.
> Excellent point!  I am hoping that distros do want to be popular 
> with the desktop folks!  ...not just the systems or network admins, 

Some do, some don't.  Hence there is more than one.

> the Apache wizards, programmers, and database devotees!!!  The 
> average clueless, dumb, and digitally bewildered office worker.  
> Someone like ME!!! 
> > Ralph, it sounds as though you think Windows and MS products are 
> > superior. That's fine. That's your opinion. But that's all. MS 
> > products are certainly not superior for what I'm doing. 
> PLEASE!!!  That is way too much of a presupposition.  I have used 
> Linux for 10 years... Apple for 10 years...  Microsoft for 20 years 
> and I find they all have strengths and weaknesses. 

Again, no one is disagreeing with your point here.  The "superior for
what I'm doing" clause above is important, if not the key of the
statement.

> Never addressed the point you impose in your question... you did 
> though.  On the desktop... Microsoft is #1 right now and has been! 
> Linus claims to be focused on the desktop (not necessarily for the 
> office user?) 

Linux is focused on making the best set of core services for a desktop
workstation.  He's done a darn good job, IMHO.  Perfect? No.  But your
in the wrong dimension for that.

> but then OO sits far from where it should be. 

This perceived distance depends on what you want it to be.

> > Are we talking about applications or file formats?  This is all to
> > vague  to mean anything.  Sure OO needs/needed M$-Office import/exporters. 
> > And M$-Office needs/needed WP/123/Quatro/etc.... import/exporters.  So 
> > what.  There are many applications in the world, the import/export
> > thing  isn't going away. 
> > If you find the OO import/exporters a problem - OK.  Say that. 
> BOTH application function and compatible input/output file format 
> are important.  Yes, both are lacking in OO! 
> Single standalone business workstations with applications 
> running (and data stored) on a local hard drive are a tough 
> mindset for network folks to grasp.  

They are hard to grasp, becuase they are increasingly hard to find.

> It is different... and Microsoft grew up in that environment.  Linux developers 
> are network oriented. 

All of M$-Office's recent feature growth isn't network related?

> OO_Writer - fine import/export superb 
> OO_Calc -  all Excel functions are NOT supported 
> Imports bomb if a unsupported function was used. 

Ok, what about the functionality that OO_Calc has that Excel lacks? 
Does that make Excel suck? 

> [Note: GNUmeric DOES support all Excel functions.] 

And some Excel doesn't.

> OO_Impress - fine import/export superb 

Actually I've got issues with the output Impress generates,  but it
kicks the livin' *@*$()@)() out of Power Point.  This really depends on
specifically what YOU want it to do.

> MySQL  - user friendly GUI interface for dumb monkeys? 

This isn't even part of OO,  and almost certainly never will be.  OO
does present a easy to use DB interface via xBase, ODBC, or JDBC.  These
tools are installed by default on most distro's.  And ODBC on Linux is
*****WAY***** easier than on Win32.

> Paint me a M$ geek if you want... guess nobody was getting 
> my original point that Linux is NOT ready for the desktop 
> and tried to take every side road and diversionary leap 
> possible to avoid addressing the specifics. 
> > Have you used OO extensively?  I have, and there are (at least)
> > several  companies in GR that do.  I've yet to have OO be in the way of
> > anything  I wanted to do, and I manage some pretty large and complext documents.
> Extensive use does not negate the missing functionality and 
> file format problems.  I wish it would... I'd get extensive!!!  :-) 

Yes, but what percentage of disconnected single-workstation desktops
care about esoteric missing features?  Of course this is impossible to
measure.  I know they exist,  but I get a constant flood of spreadsheets
and haven't encountered one.

> > I'm curious what the specific issues with OO as an application that 
> > you've discovered.  I can list mine if you like. 
> OK... I did!  Waiting for OO to be a player... not yet. 
> IBM said so, Adam... it MUST be true, right! 
> Not good enough for IBM... not good enough for ME! 

IBM said that OO was not suitable as a drop-in M$-Office replacement.  I
agree,  I also think this is a different statement than "not suitable
for everyday use", "sucks", or whatever.  They are making a specific
comment.  I don't care if OO is a drop-in M$-Office replacement; the
tool easily handles the tasks that I've presented to it.

> > Sorry, but really stupid people can use OO, Evolution, and Galeon too.
> > I've got some I could introduce you to. 
> Best news I have heard in this discussion! 
> And on the X2 desktop...I presume? 

Yes.  If you want to say that a stock RH install is not suitable for a
joe-six-packs desktop - I'll whole heartedly agree.  Just try printing a
web page - it is stupid, just plain stupid.  Again, go back to the
archive and see my "Top Ten Reasons Linux Sucks" article.

> Linux is better in many ways... ideal, model, code, etc. 
> Yes... managing a kernel project is much afield from managing 
> an office suite development army.  Bill Joy is available... 
> Some day Linux WILL arrive for the business mass market. 

No, it won't "arrive".  It will eventually reach a point of saturation
where someone will sit up and say - "Hey Look!  Linux on the desktop is
everywhere?!"  These things take time, and do to other factors progress
may ebb and rise.

> Ximian Evolution has crashed twice while I was writing this.
> At least it kept recovering this twice lost response!  I get
> CORBA errors and have to restart about every other document

Now see, I've never had a CORBA error running evolution.  But again,
this may be due to XD2, as I didn't have stock RH very long at all.