[KLUG Advocacy] RE: Adoption of Wine WAS: Novell 'opening' SuSe

[Adam Tauno Williams]

> > > I'm predicting (or at least hoping) that there will be a 
> > product like
> > > Wine (or WineX ('scuse me, "Cedega"), or Crossover Office) 
> > that won't
> > > require booting Windows to run windows apps on a mactel. 
> > Possibly, but I still think that will ultimately be bad for Apple.  It
> > reduces the pressure for a native port.  This is why the existence of
> > WINE doesn't help LINUX.
> <General Statements:ON>
> I beg to differ with this last statement.  WINE/CrossoverOffice "doesn't
> help" Linux because sys admin's don't want it to.  Let's call a spade, a
> spade.  WINE helps USERS run Microsoft and Windows applications.

Yes, it helps run those applications, it helps run those applications
POORLY.

> Admin's are not users and are more concerned with IT than apps. 

I generally disagree with this statement.   I may spend more time in
"Office" (whatever version) doing officey things then many of my users.

> Most of
> what I've seen is that Linux Sys Admin's hate Microsoft and Windows.

Well it wastes at least a couple hours out of every day.  Lets call a
spade a spade,  there just isn't many things Windows or their products
do well, or at least not consistently.

> borders on a religion thing.  If a Linux admin could, they would
> completely eliminate Windows and its applications programs.  

Sure,  the users, and me, would be more productive.   Just spent an hour
trying to figure out why IE wouldn't let one user login to some website,
worked fine in FF - except the Active-X components - and you need to
visit the site as Administrator or the Active-X components won't install
- then go back as a normal user and it works.  Solution to problem after
trying many many things - remove user's roaming profile from DC, remove
users roaming profile from workstation, reboot workstation, login as
Administrator - make sure site works - have user visit site.... user can
login now!  We are talking about the ability to reliably create A
COOKIE!  It is NOT a religious thing - crap is crap, no matter who sells
it.  M$ should stop wasting my user's time;  IE is like the browser you
would get if you went out of your way to make a bad browser.  Have a
object overlay a select box in a form, and the select box hovers over
the object - no matter what - you need to javascript hide all the select
boxes on the form whenever anything pops up, and then reappear them when
it goes away.  And if you can select something in that popup, you need
to guess - because the pointer doesn't change when you move over it.
And according to M$ CSS is an "emerging technology".  And PNG support
doesn't work in the betas of IE7 - STILL!  I don't see anything
"religious" about this,  we are not discussing abstract concepts, but
things that every day factually do not work, or work poorly.

> So, WINE
> doesn't help Linux (all that much) because the powers-that-be don't want
> it to.  If WINE were really promoted by admin's, then you would have
> Windows apps running on Linux boxes and that would be anathema.

I use applications in WINE everyday all day.  But is sucks,  it isn't
anything like using a native application.  Everything "works", printing,
etc...  actually is quite impressive how well it works.  But from a user
perspective it stinks.  The app looks different, cut-n-paste works
different, and a myriad other little things.  File save/open can be just
downright weird.  And I only do this because no equivalent native
application is available.

> Users don't care one iota what OS they are running.

Nope, but they care allot when things don't work.

>   Most don't even
> know what an OS is or how it differs from an application.  

Nope.  But they care allot when they have to call someone because they
can't print because SPOOLSS is wierded out.

> Notice the
> number of users when asked what APPLICATION they are running will say
> Windows.  Users DO care about their applications because those are what
> allow them to get THEIR jobs done.  

Yep.

> I know I'm going to catch a lot of
> flak but with the exceptions of IT apps (OS', languages, server stuff)
> and graphics, Linux doesn't hold a candle to the applications available
> on Windows.

I wouldn't go as far as "hold a candle".  If it wasn't for IE specific
web site 90% of my users could easily do everything they need without a
drop of Windows.  For very vertical application you are correct.

But how does emulating those applications help get applications or users
onto LINUX?  If you are using a $500 office package and other Windows
apps - just run Windows,  it probably came with the computer anyway.
Emulation just adds another layer within which things can go wrong.

> Is it rational to want a completely Linux world?  Why?  

No, and that will never happen.  Neither did anyone in this thread
suggest it would (or should).

> Why not use the best of both worlds?  

I'm willing to use the best of all worlds.  I use Java apps, and PHP
apps, and .NET apps (I even write those!).  But as a platform that 'best
of worlds' will never contain Windows, for innumerable non-religious
boring technical facts.

> The only real answer is that most Linux people
> completely refuse to believe that ANYTHING on the Microsoft side is
> better than what they have.  

Not true.  .NET is *AMAZING*;  it is simply put: what Java should have
been.  ODBC is great.

> Sorry guys, that is completely irrational.

And why no one in this thread suggested it.  They question in this
sub-thread related to Apple;  a company I personally expect to be little
more than a memory in ten years.  Microsoft will still be around, and
maybe by then shipping some really top notch products.

> No one OS has a lock on the totality of computing which is why I still
> see a ton of terminal emulators running on corporate machines attached
> to Big Iron.

Yep.