[KLUG Advocacy] RE: Adoption of Wine WAS: Novell 'opening' SuSe

[Mark]

> Adam Tauno Williams wrote:
> > spade.  WINE helps USERS run Microsoft and Windows applications.
> 
> Yes, it helps run those applications, it helps run those applications
> POORLY.

I know it's never going to reach "native" speed, but if more people
supported/used Wine, could it get better?  Microsoft is NEVER going to
release Office for Linux but that doesn't mean others wouldn't make it
more "WINE compatible".
> 
> > Admin's are not users and are more concerned with IT than apps. 
> 
> I generally disagree with this statement.   I may spend more time in
> "Office" (whatever version) doing officey things then many of 
> my users.

So, what do most of your users do with their computer (other than email
and paperweight)?
> 
> > Most of
> > what I've seen is that Linux Sys Admin's hate Microsoft and Windows.
> 
> Well it wastes at least a couple hours out of every day.  Lets call a
> spade a spade,  there just isn't many things Windows or their products
> do well, or at least not consistently.
> 

I'm not defending Microsoft's OS'.  Matter of fact, that is why I'm
looking at Linux.  However, from a user's perspective, their app's,
Office, in particular, are tops.  As I see it, their biggest problem in
the app area is elimination of really good features...  

> > borders on a religion thing.  If a Linux admin could, they would
> > completely eliminate Windows and its applications programs.  
> 
> Sure,  the users, and me, would be more productive.   Just 
> spent an hour trying to figure out why IE wouldn't let one user login
to 
<snip>
> It is NOT a religious thing - crap is crap, no 
> matter who sells
> it.  M$ should stop wasting my user's time;  IE is like the 

Microsoft considers IE as part of the OS, not as a separate app...  I
understand that most other people disagree with this designation but
their mind-set is significant.  I'm not sure why but they have big
problems when it comes to the OS components.

But, this ignores my point, which is about apps...  
Let's talk about Microsoft's apps: the Office family, Visio, OneNote,
Encarta, Project, Streets&Trips (Mappoint), Money, Age of Empires,
HALO...  Ok, the last two are games but it's a rare PC user who plays no
games.  Also, let's not limit it to Microsoft, what about the 1000's of
other companies developing for Windows.  Let's talk about the Quicken
family of products, Peachtree's products, AutoCAD family, Mathsoft, ACT,
etc.

Your use of the M$ moniker is a prime example of the "religion" thing.
Microsoft is no more or less concerned with money than any other major
computer company.  The only difference between IBM, HP, Sun, Oracle,
Ashton-Tate, CA, Corel, Symantec, Novel and all the rest is that
Microsoft found a way to win it's competitions.  That's business.  

>From an investor's/finance position, I think Microsoft is a lot less
greedy than most other companies out there.  If you think they are bad,
take a look at 70s IBM and see what they would do if they were currently
in Microsoft's position.

> 
> > So, WINE
> > doesn't help Linux (all that much) because the 
> powers-that-be don't want
> > it to.  If WINE were really promoted by admin's, then you would have
> > Windows apps running on Linux boxes and that would be anathema.
> 
> I use applications in WINE everyday all day.  But is sucks,  it isn't
> anything like using a native application.  Everything 
> "works", printing, etc...  actually is quite impressive how well it
works.  But 
> from a user perspective it stinks.  The app looks different,
cut-n-paste works
> different, and a myriad other little things.  File save/open 
> can be just downright weird.  And I only do this because no equivalent
native
> application is available.

So, tell the developers about it.  Isn't that what the Open Source
paradigm is about?  Oh, wait, OSI is about a person being able to
program useful features for THEMSELVES.  In the end, this is really
about everybody being a programmer at some level.  Which comes back to
one of my points, Linux maintains a developer/IT bias.  WINE bucks this
trend, it TRIES to put the user in control, at least of the apps they
are running. 

> 
> > Users don't care one iota what OS they are running.
> 
> Nope, but they care allot when things don't work.

Yes, they do.  Could Wine work?  If so, what has to happen to make it
work?  By the way, are you using just Wine or Crossover Office?  

Would Wine be better if it got the support of some of the other major
apps, say SAMBA?  I think Samba is the paragon for Linux backend/Windows
frontend.  Why can't Wine work just as well as Samba?  This is a true
question, I really don't know if there is something that inherently
prevents Wine from working well.  

I think the real answer is that IT supported Samba.  It got support and
it's quality reflects this.

> > and graphics, Linux doesn't hold a candle to the 
> applications available
> > on Windows.
> 
> I wouldn't go as far as "hold a candle".  If it wasn't for IE specific
> web site 90% of my users could easily do everything they need 
> without a
> drop of Windows.  For very vertical application you are correct.

As you said, you spend more time doing "officey things" than your users.
I suspect that's because they are using some "vertical application".

The vertical applications are the killer.  Finance has it's accounting
packages; engineering has its CAD stuff; marketing & sales has
ACT/contact management; Manufacturing may be using CAM; Maintenance is
using Excel as a database because they can no longer get dBase.  They
could use a couple of access wizards but that needs a PC geek in the
department and IT hates these types of apps because they think they will
end up with them in there laps.  SQL just plain scares the bejeebers out
of them, if they even know what it is.

And for the home users, the "vertical apps" are even more important.  My
family might use Word once every couple of weeks. I use Excel because I
like it and know what it can do but no one else touches it.  Database,
what's that?  The killer apps at home are: Quicken (in particular, it's
connectivity to banks), email, Photoshop, Nero, and games (everyone has
their own favorite) and Mastercook, in that order.  Linux has parity for
email but it's Photoshop and Nero competitors are just not as user
friendly.  I'm not a photo/graphics person myself.  GIMP might even be
technically better than Photoshop but (my users say) it's not as
friendly.  I know there are better CD writing tools but Nero just plain
makes it simple.

> 
> But how does emulating those applications help get 
> applications or users
> onto LINUX?  If you are using a $500 office package and other Windows
> apps - just run Windows,  it probably came with the computer anyway.
> Emulation just adds another layer within which things can go wrong.
> 
> > Is it rational to want a completely Linux world?  Why?  
> 
> No, and that will never happen.  Neither did anyone in this thread
> suggest it would (or should).

To answer the original question... Because Windows OS sucks.  Wine might
be another layer but does the stability of Linux solve enough problems
to create a lower energy solution overall?


> 
> > Why not use the best of both worlds?  
> 
> I'm willing to use the best of all worlds.  I use Java apps, and PHP
> apps, and .NET apps (I even write those!).  But as a platform 
> that 'best
> of worlds' will never contain Windows, for innumerable non-religious
> boring technical facts.

Do you mean just Windows OS or all of Windows apps?  

Again, this reiterates my point, IT people inherently think of the OS
side.  In their dislike of Windows "the OS", they carry that over to
Windows "the applications".  That is were the "religious" blindness
comes in.

> 
> > The only real answer is that most Linux people
> > completely refuse to believe that ANYTHING on the Microsoft side is
> > better than what they have.  
> 
> Not true.  .NET is *AMAZING*;  it is simply put: what Java should have
> been.  ODBC is great.

Again, this is a IT/Developers viewpoint.  While they have a valid view,
it's not the only one.   Try thinking from the user's standpoint.  Put
yourself in the shoes of your accounting department.  

One of the reasons why the PC was so successful in the 1980's is that it
took control away from Big Iron IT and put it in the users hands.  It's
not that IT is inherently bad but, quite frankly, IT really doesn't have
the handle on what's best for the users.  Now comes the real conflict.
What's best for the users usually means the most work for IT.  I
understand why IT would dislike and, therefor, resist this.  But can IT
understand why the users would fight for the other side?

> 
> > Sorry guys, that is completely irrational.
> 
> And why no one in this thread suggested it.

True, it was not suggested in this thread but it is an underlying
thought in most of this group and the Linux community at large.

> They question in this sub-thread related to Apple;

Right.  The thread was drifting, hence my change of subject lines....  I
took a tangent from the VMWare/Wine sub-topic.


Mark