[KLUG Members] RE: great site to "get together" in

[members@kalamazoolinux.org]

Vernon Jenewein <jenefarm@i2k.com> wrote:

>Iguess I'm not getting the main idea across.
No, Vernon, we read you loud and clear. We simply disagree, for a number of
reasons, that the medium shift you propose is some sort of panacea. You see
what I did here? I *edited* your point, excised what I didn't beleive was 
needed in order to write my reply, and I'll continue to do that whenever
I feel it promotes clarity and good communication. There's a lot I do not 
like about electronic communication, primarily when a lot of it becomes 
unmanagable, whether it's forums or brain dead e-mail programs that "help"
me by stacking up messages in reverse order. Now, I'll agree that forums 
have a place, but they simply do not provide this level of control, and they
clearly don't have any bandwidth economics.

>Why invent the wheel when it's already out there?
I quite agree. Why re-invent the e-mail thread wth something that in many
cases offers no additional value, namely, the forum!

Several posters have talked about other media, like newsgroups, and it's
already been said that KLUG would consider a forum if for some reason it 
proved to be superior for some activities. It's also been pointed out 
that all the e-mail you see is archived in searchable form on our web 
site, and anyone can see it if they like. Some of the things you've 
posted indicate that you have not absorbed these points. Please do so.

>....  A computer scientist , Berners-Lee ...
Time Berners-Lee is a Physicist, not that it matter much. I *do* so wish
people would get this right. Other aspects of this somewhat superficial
and flawed narrative will not, need not be contested here. They deveoloped
thse ideas, but really didn't see many of the applications we have today,
including, ans Berners-Lee has said, things like e-commerce and forums.
What he wanted to do was distribute papers and link them together, and
that was about it.

>I for one would rather just go to p-two.net...
Please do so! :)
Actually, I've gone over there, registered, and poked around. Not a bad 
site, It doesn't appear to be a bad implementation of this idea, none of
which is the point. Vernon, No one here has expressed opposition to the 
idea. Those who have responded to you simply don't see that the medium
shift you propose is, on the whole, beneficial. Moreover, they've given
a fair number of reasons for thinking so.

>I guess my basic point is .. 
OK, let's go over these...

>yes you already have a web site.. and yes you 
>have devised a way to send information back and forth...
We've devloped our site as a tool for our members to use, both as a means
of finding information about activities, and as a way to build an infor-
mation base. The messages that are sent are part of that base. Anyone can
view them.

What we've "devised" is the application of the oldest and most pervasive 
method of exchanging information over the 'net. Everyone knows how to use
that medium, and nothing more needs to be developed or understood. What
could be easier, or of more utility?

Now, do we want to do something in addition to that? We are **always** in
search of applications for new media, whether it's this idea or conferencing, 
as embodied in our "Driftwood" project, or in our local activities. As KLUG
has grown, we've incorporated them into what we do, and perhaps we'll do
that with forums, too. When we do, it'll be supported by members and volun-
teers, and run as a KLUG activity.

>but since Linux is based on a free and open society, then one should be 
>free to visit such a web site as above and look, listen, and learn.... and 
>perhaps help.
Again, Vernon, no one has suggested stopping anyone from going over to the
site you've been talking about and doing anything they please. Actually, KLUG
members are active in a number of existing forums, newsgroups, and creative
projects that make the Free Software community more active and robust. KLUG
encourages this activity, and doesn't see it as contending with the mailing
list services KLUG provides. 

>Isn't help what it's all about?
Help is one of the things we provide, there are other things we do in addition
to that. I guess the short answer to your question is "No, there's a lot more".

Anyway, can we bring this to some well understood closure? I think we have 
gone over this ground a couple of times now, I think everyone has (or can)
absorb the issues that have been posted. If you don't have the mail messages,
you can of course go check it out on our website....

							Regards,
							---> RGB <---